COVID 19 Compliant - Morning Fewbie Desert Drive - Solar Park - Dubai - 10 Jul 2020

[Wrangeld]

10 hours ago, Lorenzo Candelpergher said:

Dear @Chaitanya D,

If I change the rims, it will be only with the ones recommended by Nissan, ie 18" with 265/70R18 tyres, as I totally agree with you that nothing should be done on the car that may void the manufacturer's warranty (also for insurance reasons).

Many have advised the move and even @Gaurav was suggesting me to consider shifting to a high prifile tyre some posts back to reduce pop-out risks. 

Meanwhile I have also discovered the existence of "inner beadlocks" (see https://ok4wd.com/inner-air-lock-inner-air-lock-pneumatic-inter-ina208100). They seem quite an interesting solution, for which I would be curious to hear some advice from anyone who had any experience with it. 

Having said this, I totally believe my problem, as you suggest, is mostly about using too much power instead of momentum, which is something I am trying to improve. I think I got much better than in the beginning, but I sense it is mostly a matter of accumulating a sufficient number of driving hours, in order to gain confidence on going a bit faster and learning to let go when momentum is lost rather than flooring the throttle... 

For this In the next rides I was considering the possibility to ask someone behind me to accept mounting my GoPro on their bonnet so I could see my own driving from behind and be able to assess what I am doing right or wrong. 

See you on the sand. 

L

I love the idea of the two of you @Lorenzo Candelpergher and @Chaitanya D having this discussion and sharing experiences, as this is what the forum is all about. 

@Lorenzo Candelpergher with great power comes great responsibility! From what I see of your driving, you are using power more than momentum and because you have so much of it, you can often power your way out. It's what I did at the start of this journey as well. These days, I try to test myself by for instance setting a limit to for instance keep my rev meter below 2000 and spend a lot more time looking at the line I want to take. As a fewbie, you have the experience to decide if the line that was driven before you is optimum for your vehicle. If you think it is already too churned up for instance, try a little higher or lower. This will not only help you, but also the people in the convoy behind you who can suffer from having to follow the route after you ploughed on through. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Wrangeld

[Chaitanya D]

11 hours ago, Lorenzo Candelpergher said:

Dear @Chaitanya D,

If I change the rims, it will be only with the ones recommended by Nissan, ie 18" with 265/70R18 tyres, as I totally agree with you that nothing should be done on the car that may void the manufacturer's warranty (also for insurance reasons).

Many have advised the move and even @Gaurav was suggesting me to consider shifting to a high prifile tyre some posts back to reduce pop-out risks. 

Meanwhile I have also discovered the existence of "inner beadlocks" (see https://ok4wd.com/inner-air-lock-inner-air-lock-pneumatic-inter-ina208100). They seem quite an interesting solution, for which I would be curious to hear some advice from anyone who had any experience with it. 

Having said this, I totally believe my problem, as you suggest, is mostly about using too much power instead of momentum, which is something I am trying to improve. I think I got much better than in the beginning, but I sense it is mostly a matter of accumulating a sufficient number of driving hours, in order to gain confidence on going a bit faster and learning to let go when momentum is lost rather than flooring the throttle... 

For this In the next rides I was considering the possibility to ask someone behind me to accept mounting my GoPro on their bonnet so I could see my own driving from behind and be able to assess what I am doing right or wrong. 

See you on the sand. 

L

Thanks @Lorenzo Candelpergher for the discussion and I love it more because this issue of using Y62 as a offroading car  has been something I tried to figure out, before I decided not to venture any further considering the huge costs and maintenance involved . I still was surprised when @Frederic mentioned me how well I was managing the Y62 in some technical areas in Qudra in one of the trip reports.What @Wrangeld is suggesting to you comes with practise and experience.

Calculate how much you have to spend ( both in terms of money and time) changing all that you want and make your car a better off roader, keeping in mind all that which comes in terms of warranty, RTA passing and insurance.Even after that how much can you really push it when you go on from fewbie to morebie considering the size and weight of the car .There have been discussions on carnity in the Nissan patrol forum, and you can also look into patrol forum on line (https://www.patrol4x4.com/).  Rethink , discuss with all the honest advise you will get here and then decide how you want to proceed with the modifications.Cheers!

Edited July 13, 2020 by Chaitanya D

[Lorenzo Candelpergher]

9 minutes ago, Chaitanya D said:

Thanks @Lorenzo Candelpergher for the discussion and I love it more because this issue of using Y62 as a offroading car  has been something I tried to figure out, before I decided not to venture any further considering the huge costs and maintenance involved . I still was surprised when @Frederic mentioned me how well I was managing the Y62 in some technical areas in Qudra in one of the trip reports.What @Wrangeld is suggesting to you which comes with practise and experience.

Calculate how much you have to spend ( both in terms of money and time) changing all that you want and make your car a better off roader, keeping in mind all that which comes in terms of warranty, RTA passing and insurance.Even after that how much can you really push it when you go on from fewbie to morebie considering the size and weight of the car .There have been discussions on this forum in the Nissan patrol forum, and you can also look into patrol forum on line (https://www.patrol4x4.com/).  Rethink , discuss with all the honest advise you will get here and then decide how you want to proceed with the modifications.Cheers!

Dear @Chaitanya D,

I have no intention to do any other upgrades/modifications than changing the wheels/tyres, after having already installed skid plates. Regardless of budget implications, I am indeed against upgrades such as suspension lifts, wheel spacers, etc. as these imply a deviation of the performance of the vehicle from the intended one on-road as per the manufacturer. Even the inner beadlocks are something I may consider only if they are fully approved by RTA for on-road use. 

I chose the Nissan Patrol as a good compromise for normal on-road / off-road family use. Should I become an off-road freak, really willing to push it to the limit (which I doubt as I am driving in the desert for fun, it doesn't have to become an obsession about the car specs) I may venture, in the future, into buying a 2nd hand small and cheap car with proper off-roading specs, but I'd say this is way beyond the horizon now. 

What @Wrangeld says is what I am more and more realizing: I need to develop my skills in maximizing momentum and being more proactive in assessing the best line ahead. I hadn't thought about imposing to myself a limitation to the RPM, which I may do since the next ride. Another point I need to figure out is the right gear, as I tend very often to get down to 1st just to have the max response, which is probably not the best way to handle a 400hp / 560Nm torque car. 

[Chaitanya D]

4 minutes ago, Lorenzo Candelpergher said:

Dear @Chaitanya D,

I have no intention to do any other upgrades/modifications than changing the wheels/tyres, after having already installed skid plates. Regardless of budget implications, I am indeed against upgrades such as suspension lifts, wheel spacers, etc. as these imply a deviation of the performance of the vehicle from the intended one on-road as per the manufacturer. Even the inner beadlocks are something I may consider only if they are fully approved by RTA for on-road use. 

I chose the Nissan Patrol as a good compromise for normal on-road / off-road family use. Should I become an off-road freak, really willing to push it to the limit (which I doubt as I am driving in the desert for fun, it doesn't have to become an obsession about the car specs) I may venture, in the future, into buying a 2nd hand small and cheap car with proper off-roading specs, but I'd say this is way beyond the horizon now. 

What @Wrangeld says is what I am more and more realizing: I need to develop my skills in maximizing momentum and being more proactive in assessing the best line ahead. I hadn't thought about imposing to myself a limitation to the RPM, which I may do since the next ride. Another point I need to figure out is the right gear, as I tend very often to get down to 1st just to have the max response, which is probably not the best way to handle a 400hp / 560Nm torque car. 

Dear @Lorenzo Candelpergher, yes shifting down frequently is not a good idea for the Y62. Just D , sand mode, 4H with traction control off worked for me all the time. 4L and Diff lock in getting out of stuck situations if needed , rarely. 

[Wrangeld]

4 minutes ago, Lorenzo Candelpergher said:

What @Wrangeld says is what I am more and more realizing: I need to develop my skills in maximizing momentum and being more proactive in assessing the best line ahead. I hadn't thought about imposing to myself a limitation to the RPM, which I may do since the next ride. Another point I need to figure out is the right gear, as I tend very often to get down to 1st just to have the max response, which is probably not the best way to handle a 400hp / 560Nm torque car. 

Carnity is really focused on empowering people to drive stock vehicles in the desert. Unlike a lot of clubs there's no modifications needed to get going - and I think you've been on drives where the owner brought even their AWD vehicle, because we are quite committed to letting as many experience off road driving as possible. 

One observation, we propose everyone drives in D rather than using tiptronic for a reason. If you use the tiptronic your car cannot learn what to do in the desert. It has no idea that it needs to change gear because the going is getting tougher, because you decided you know better than the car. The thing is that the car shold learn with you. 'Max response' might not be the best solution. More power is usually less successful in the long run than more finesse. 

If you are climbing a dune, that different, force the engine into a low gear because you need the torque/traction etc, but for most situations in which we drive, once your car learns what to do, you will find it more relaxing (and I think you'll improve your skills) when you focus on power delivery and line. I say this having never driven a Y62 but having watched you on a couple of drives. 

You have done a great job so far, so sharpening up on these types of things will take you to the next level and put you in better harmony with the car. 

[Lorenzo Candelpergher]

44 minutes ago, Wrangeld said:

Carnity is really focused on empowering people to drive stock vehicles in the desert. Unlike a lot of clubs there's no modifications needed to get going - and I think you've been on drives where the owner brought even their AWD vehicle, because we are quite committed to letting as many experience off road driving as possible. 

One observation, we propose everyone drives in D rather than using tiptronic for a reason. If you use the tiptronic your car cannot learn what to do in the desert. It has no idea that it needs to change gear because the going is getting tougher, because you decided you know better than the car. The thing is that the car shold learn with you. 'Max response' might not be the best solution. More power is usually less successful in the long run than more finesse. 

If you are climbing a dune, that different, force the engine into a low gear because you need the torque/traction etc, but for most situations in which we drive, once your car learns what to do, you will find it more relaxing (and I think you'll improve your skills) when you focus on power delivery and line. I say this having never driven a Y62 but having watched you on a couple of drives. 

You have done a great job so far, so sharpening up on these types of things will take you to the next level and put you in better harmony with the car. 

Hi @Wrangeld,

I always thought I was the one that had to learn and for this reason I was told not to drive in D in order to understand how different gears play in different situations. I'll give it a try, from what you write I understand you suggest D everywhere except when climbing uphill, so to be able to concentrate on other driving matters (power / line).  

[Wrangeld]

1 minute ago, Lorenzo Candelpergher said:

Hi @Wrangeld,

I always thought I was the one that had to learn and for this reason I was told not to drive in D in order to understand how different gears play in different situations. I'll give it a try, from what you write I understand you suggest D everywhere except when climbing uphill, so to be able to concentrate on other driving matters (power / line).  

If someone in the seniors in Carnity told you to try different gears instead of D, then I am not going to contradict them.

We do normally advise drving in D because yes, your vehicle also needs to learn - especially a modern computer chip driven vehicle like your Y62. As you apprecaite, the biggest obstacle the majority of Y62s will ever see are the speed humps at Spinneys. Even if you are driving the car daily to work on tarmac, it's unlikely you will ask it to take anywhere as much strain as it takes working in the desert. 

So, yes, the car needs to get used to your driving style and the fact that form time to time you ask it to work considerably harder than usual. By using the semi manual box (tiptronic) you prevent the engine maangement chip from learning what it needs to do. It can learn for instance that when the engine is hammered (to get through a sidey) it needs to change down a few gears quickly so that the power can be delivered at the right time. In D it can learn, if you change gears it cannot. 

The second bit you got 100% right. Two hands on the wheel, focus on the sand and your momentum you'll start to feel how to be much smoother in the drive ... and then in those moments you need to force the car, like a big uphill, take control to stop the engine from taking an easier route - because it cannot see what is ahead. 

I will be interested to hear from you if this works or not. 

[Lorenzo Candelpergher]

3 minutes ago, Wrangeld said:

If someone in the seniors in Carnity told you to try different gears instead of D, then I am not going to contradict them.

We do normally advise drving in D because yes, your vehicle also needs to learn - especially a modern computer chip driven vehicle like your Y62. As you apprecaite, the biggest obstacle the majority of Y62s will ever see are the speed humps at Spinneys. Even if you are driving the car daily to work on tarmac, it's unlikely you will ask it to take anywhere as much strain as it takes working in the desert. 

So, yes, the car needs to get used to your driving style and the fact that form time to time you ask it to work considerably harder than usual. By using the semi manual box (tiptronic) you prevent the engine maangement chip from learning what it needs to do. It can learn for instance that when the engine is hammered (to get through a sidey) it needs to change down a few gears quickly so that the power can be delivered at the right time. In D it can learn, if you change gears it cannot. 

The second bit you got 100% right. Two hands on the wheel, focus on the sand and your momentum you'll start to feel how to be much smoother in the drive ... and then in those moments you need to force the car, like a big uphill, take control to stop the engine from taking an easier route - because it cannot see what is ahead. 

I will be interested to hear from you if this works or not. 

@Wrangeld,

I don't think I was told not to drive in D by any Carnity senior. I think it was in some other group or some youtube videos I watched, but I definitely see the benefits of driving in D based on this discussion. I'll definitely try as I am fully focused on improving my skills. 

Thanks for the insights, it is great to have a chance to have feedbacks and suggestions from the whole group. I love these exchanges. 

[Frederic]

2 minutes ago, Lorenzo Candelpergher said:

@Wrangeld,

I don't think I was told not to drive in D by any Carnity senior. I think it was in some other group or some youtube videos I watched, but I definitely see the benefits of driving in D based on this discussion. I'll definitely try as I am fully focused on improving my skills. 

Thanks for the insights, it is great to have a chance to have feedbacks and suggestions from the whole group. I love these exchanges. 

Good topic, and depends on vehicle to vehicle. The Generation 4 Pajero for example is known for its rather slow gear change behavior in D, and while for Newbie drives this is acceptable, the moment you start doing Fewbie drives you'll notice that it will be up or down shifting JUST at the moment you don't want it. So Tiptronic at that moment becomes the better option.
Like we always say, you can offroad with any car in the desert ONCE you totally understand and know the car and learn to live and work around the flaws the vehicle has. We've all been there.

[Kalahari]

Yip, same for my Prado - had to manually flip between 3rd and 2nd gear, or lose all momentum in sideys. With Xterra I also prefer to drive manually, rather than D, as down-shifting is just too slow (and will require full throttle).