Turbo or Super Chargers?

[Arman]

This is mostly from the perspective of someone who drives an older car like me as i dont have experience in newer cars but would be cool to hear all the opinions.

Having an older '05TJ like all SUVs of the era they were kind of over-engineered to be reliable, so power wasn't at the top of the priority list, not that im complaining, my car seems capable of 90% of the things I ask it to do, but this is about the 10% that im curious to explore when my skills have caught up to the car's ability, things like attacking huge dunes and going up long slip faces.

To that point, i dont think i've seen many Superchargers on cars climbing Mroeeb competitively, is that because we value the higher RPM power boost or because Superchargers are just too inefficient, or am I both blind and def and they do in fact have Supers?

Edited February 17, 2021 by Arman

[Srikumar]

You need to add a 3rd option on your poll - Neither.

Supercharged I believe is the better among the two, but from what limited I have seen of few members that have installed it, the benefit was a mere 10-15% over a normal stock car because there are endless issues about tuning it correctly for the desert.

[sertac]

Both not a good idea on such old Jeep. 

[Rahimdad]

Wow this question comes to bite me back. Although my question was a bit different but handled quite well by the technical gurus available to us. @Barry was my main help to understand and decide against either one.

Firstly to understand the difference between a Turbo and a Supercharger. Turbo needs outside air and kicks in at higher revs. Supercharger produces its own air from within and is not reliant on outside air. So Superchargers are more helpful in all rev bands. That wants me to go for a supercharger.

Now the reason why we should not get one. You will end up spending 3 times more than your Jeeps value to get any help from it. Why? No matter how much air the Turbo or Supercharger tries to put in, the values of how much air the engine should get is decided by the MAF Sensor. So we can get the MAF sensor changed, right? Yes, but the ECU is than programmed to supply a certain amount of air, fuel and sparks from the spark plugs to create a certain amount of power. So what all do you need to change to make any difference? Good question.

So you need to change the ECU to a programmable one and pay about AED 40k just for tuning. But you also need a fuel pump that will supply more fuel. Don't forget to change your manifold and exhaust system for all the carbon to be released from the engine. Oh by the way you will need to get forged parts for your engine because your engine will not be able to survive with all the extra stress. Spark plugs and wire sets will have to be upgraded.

So finally after spending AED 120k you're able to enjoy your Jeep and still your skill levels will never be high enough as what the Jeep is offering you. Plus guess what, the RTA just scrapped your car as it is no longer street legal. So now buy a truck to pull your trailer with the Jeep as you cannot drive it on road anymore. Hope you are on 7th heaven enjoying your Jeep for that 10% extra power you wanted to make.

As for me after 12 years of driving in the sand I'm still crazy enough to come out week after week to learn new stuff about myself and my car. It always surprises me. About 3 weeks back I was lucky to find a good line on Faya and made it 75% to the top from the front face which was the highest ever. Last week I made it 90% on top of Faya from the front face and I'm learning never to say never. I have always tried to find my cheat routes to the top, but recently got that passion back to push myself and my car to the max and it gives me great satisfaction.

Looking forward to catching you on top of the tallest dune on Mars as UAE Mars rover inspects how you did it with a moded Jeep. Enjoy.

[Gaurav]

Option 1: Learn to live with what you have and practice more to overcome the challenges.

Option 2: Buy another capable desert toy with stock capabilities.

Option 3: V8 swap, if you have solid wasta to get RTA approval or trailer.

Option 4: Twin Turbo, if you have solid wasta to get RTA approval or trailer.

Option 5: Supercharger.

Option 3, 4 and 5 will also open HUGE can of worms in getting weekly visit to mechanic and keep tinkering things left and right that eventually you might sell TJ after spending 30-40k in six month time because it will become a money pit with tons of headache.

What Sri is referring to an old member who have installed supercharger and kept trying to climb Pink rock - 80% height and failing every week, whereas same model stock Jeep wrangler climbs 70-75% in completely stock state. God knows if he still drives the same Jeep and manage to climb 100% or settled with 80% .

If you still opt to go for this route then you should also listen to Sertac as why he is saying not to so old jeep, as there is no magic potion that you plug and play turbo or SC and car will climb higher. Instead you also need to verify if your old engine internals can survive that boost. Many times it wont, so you have to rebuild the engine with forged internals before going Turbo or SC route.

[Chaitanya D]

1 hour ago, Arman said:

This is mostly from the perspective of someone who drives an older car like me as i dont have experience in newer cars but would be cool to hear all the opinions.

Having an older '05TJ like all SUVs of the era they were kind of over-engineered to be reliable, so power wasn't at the top of the priority list, not that im complaining, my car seems capable of 90% of the things I ask it to do, but this is about the 10% that im curious to explore when my skills have caught up to the car's ability, things like attacking huge dunes and going up long slip faces.

To that point, i dont think i've seen many Superchargers on cars climbing Mroeeb competitively, is that because we value the higher RPM power boost or because Superchargers are just too inefficient, or am I both blind and def and they do in fact have Supers?

Having seen you from earlier days, you are driving really well and you will only get better . I am not sure if you are really planning to get these done spending all those bucks?

For that 10% extra you will lose money, time and most importantly peace of mind.

[M.Seidam]

Dear Arman 

the best thing about Carnity is that you get a sincere unbiased opinion and options , and speaking of options I would choose always option one in Gaurav bhai list above .

it has been always about this final 10 to 15 % of vehicle related boost issue . I think with your awesome TJ and practice patience and refinement of your skills it can be reduced to 5% remaining ( keep it as car breather no beyond ) . 
 

most if not all marshals drive stock vehicles ( no major mods ) and they can do all maneuvers they want .

Cheers 🌷

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Mohamed Seidam

[Shehab Alawadhi]

16 hours ago, Rahimdad said:

Wow this question comes to bite me back. Although my question was a bit different but handled quite well by the technical gurus available to us. @Barry was my main help to understand and decide against either one.

Firstly to understand the difference between a Turbo and a Supercharger. Turbo needs outside air and kicks in at higher revs. Supercharger produces its own air from within and is not reliant on outside air. So Superchargers are more helpful in all rev bands. That wants me to go for a supercharger.

Now the reason why we should not get one. You will end up spending 3 times more than your Jeeps value to get any help from it. Why? No matter how much air the Turbo or Supercharger tries to put in, the values of how much air the engine should get is decided by the MAF Sensor. So we can get the MAF sensor changed, right? Yes, but the ECU is than programmed to supply a certain amount of air, fuel and sparks from the spark plugs to create a certain amount of power. So what all do you need to change to make any difference? Good question.

So you need to change the ECU to a programmable one and pay about AED 40k just for tuning. But you also need a fuel pump that will supply more fuel. Don't forget to change your manifold and exhaust system for all the carbon to be released from the engine. Oh by the way you will need to get forged parts for your engine because your engine will not be able to survive with all the extra stress. Spark plugs and wire sets will have to be upgraded.

So finally after spending AED 120k you're able to enjoy your Jeep and still your skill levels will never be high enough as what the Jeep is offering you. Plus guess what, the RTA just scrapped your car as it is no longer street legal. So now buy a truck to pull your trailer with the Jeep as you cannot drive it on road anymore. Hope you are on 7th heaven enjoying your Jeep for that 10% extra power you wanted to make.

As for me after 12 years of driving in the sand I'm still crazy enough to come out week after week to learn new stuff about myself and my car. It always surprises me. About 3 weeks back I was lucky to find a good line on Faya and made it 75% to the top from the front face which was the highest ever. Last week I made it 90% on top of Faya from the front face and I'm learning never to say never. I have always tried to find my cheat routes to the top, but recently got that passion back to push myself and my car to the max and it gives me great satisfaction.

Looking forward to catching you on top of the tallest dune on Mars as UAE Mars rover inspects how you did it with a moded Jeep. Enjoy.

Very informative comment but what takes the cake is the comment about UAE being on Mars. I almost fell of my chair laughing. @Arman if only it was as easy as it sounds to add a turbo to your car. As @Rahimdad mentioned. You need to spend atleast 100k on the car just to get the turbo to be effective and not ruin your car. You may be better off getting a V8. Honestly look into filters. Something simple does help you a lot. If you remember the Jeep I used to have the only thing that was modded was the filter (it was a K&N filter) and it was a bunny in the desert. Since your car is American and one of the most popular off roading cars there should be a lot of forums and posts about simple yet effective mods that will 1 help your car preform a little bit better 2 make your car sound nicer (not something important but still a good plus). I have a friend who has had 3 modded jeeps 2 turbo 1 supercharged, he’s always in the garage, and he still can’t drive as good as you can in the desert. It’s not worth it at all. Now on the other hand if you are making a lot of money and have cash to spare and have a second car for daily use you can do that. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Shehab Alawadhi

[Rahimdad]

Thanks @Shehab Alawadhi you know me, no matter how serious the topic is I try to bring out some humor in it. I think instead of searching for a job I should now consider myself as a stand up comedian.

The best way to get more out of any vehicle is reducing the weight of the car, @Arman if you are not using the rear seats, remove them, it might be only 10 Kgs but that in itself increases your power to weight ratio. If you have side steps, those are heavy, remove them and so on and so forth, the lighter the car the more nimble it is.

[Arman]

On 2/17/2021 at 1:10 PM, Rahimdad said:

Wow this question comes to bite me back. Although my question was a bit different but handled quite well by the technical gurus available to us. @Barry was my main help to understand and decide against either one.

Firstly to understand the difference between a Turbo and a Supercharger. Turbo needs outside air and kicks in at higher revs. Supercharger produces its own air from within and is not reliant on outside air. So Superchargers are more helpful in all rev bands. That wants me to go for a supercharger.

Now the reason why we should not get one. You will end up spending 3 times more than your Jeeps value to get any help from it. Why? No matter how much air the Turbo or Supercharger tries to put in, the values of how much air the engine should get is decided by the MAF Sensor. So we can get the MAF sensor changed, right? Yes, but the ECU is than programmed to supply a certain amount of air, fuel and sparks from the spark plugs to create a certain amount of power. So what all do you need to change to make any difference? Good question.

So you need to change the ECU to a programmable one and pay about AED 40k just for tuning. But you also need a fuel pump that will supply more fuel. Don't forget to change your manifold and exhaust system for all the carbon to be released from the engine. Oh by the way you will need to get forged parts for your engine because your engine will not be able to survive with all the extra stress. Spark plugs and wire sets will have to be upgraded.

So finally after spending AED 120k you're able to enjoy your Jeep and still your skill levels will never be high enough as what the Jeep is offering you. Plus guess what, the RTA just scrapped your car as it is no longer street legal. So now buy a truck to pull your trailer with the Jeep as you cannot drive it on road anymore. Hope you are on 7th heaven enjoying your Jeep for that 10% extra power you wanted to make.

As for me after 12 years of driving in the sand I'm still crazy enough to come out week after week to learn new stuff about myself and my car. It always surprises me. About 3 weeks back I was lucky to find a good line on Faya and made it 75% to the top from the front face which was the highest ever. Last week I made it 90% on top of Faya from the front face and I'm learning never to say never. I have always tried to find my cheat routes to the top, but recently got that passion back to push myself and my car to the max and it gives me great satisfaction.

Looking forward to catching you on top of the tallest dune on Mars as UAE Mars rover inspects how you did it with a moded Jeep. Enjoy.

I'm just looking for some insight into this as i was at Badayer a while ago with a group of TJ and there's a bunch of big dunes around and i saw the difference that Turbos and Supers made to their ability to climb without having to get a lot of momentum.

The matter of price hadnt come to mind yet so that's cool to know and now that i think of it, the guys that did have them tended to be in and out of garages on a weekly basis thus negating the reputation of the 4L i6 as a reliable engine....

Besides, being able to say that i drive a stock car and barely use the throttle because im just conserving momentum up and down the dunes feels really satisfactory

On 2/17/2021 at 4:18 PM, Mohamed Seidam said:

Dear Arman 

the best thing about Carnity is that you get a sincere unbiased opinion and options , and speaking of options I would choose always option one in Gaurav bhai list above .

it has been always about this final 10 to 15 % of vehicle related boost issue . I think with your awesome TJ and practice patience and refinement of your skills it can be reduced to 5% remaining ( keep it as car breather no beyond ) . 
 

most if not all marshals drive stock vehicles ( no major mods ) and they can do all maneuvers they want .

Cheers 🌷

 

Absolutely, and that's what i was hoping for...i couldnt see the drawbacks apart from the fact that decent Turbos and Supers cosr upward of 7k which now means i could just get a V8 for 20k and sell the i6 if i was really bothered...but i love my machine too much to want to change it too much.