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In sand, in general recovery goes per below split: 75% self recovery with low gear, diff locks and driver skills. 20% with second car tow rope pull out. 5% winch.

Dear @RiadJL, dear @ChrisW, dear @nithish468, as already done for Day 2, considering the ample availability of remaining open spots for this drive, I'll be happy to add you to the participants' list of this Day 3, if you are OK with it. Thanks a lot.

Theres always the quick-release winch mount and QD(Quick Detach) wiring hookup. Put the winch (strapped down) in the back, and if the 1-5% occasion occurs, stick it on in around 1 minute. Plenty of kits out there if you go this route. 👍

Thanks all, some very helpful points to ponder. The consistent theme is of course that less weight (or improved power to weight ratio) will always be a good thing. On that basis I’m looking to swap the front end for something much lighter. I am sure there will be secondary benefits with respect to balance and front-end loading too. The bumper itself is a Smittybilt model out of the US, and I think optimised for rock crawling (…or maybe just bashing!) above all else. I can safely add myself to the long line of people who have added offroad mods ahead of actually knowing what they need (versus what the garage are happy to sell you!). The winch is an interesting one. Sounds like it’s useful one in twenty times as a last resort. Of course the thing about last resorts is that you might rarely use them, but you’re always pleased you had it to fall back on… I think for me the approach will be lighter bumper with a winch plate, but save fitting the winch for much further down the road when I’m more experienced/driving with a less equipped group.

It all depends on what you value in performance. My two cents are save on weight with the bumper but don't shy away from a winch. Steel bumpers are indeed popular for their durability and ability to serve as solid recovery points. However, modern aluminum bumpers, like the Genright low-profile for example, can offer impressive strength while significantly reducing weight/and adds to your clearance. While it's ideal for every vehicle in a group to have a winch for self-recovery, it's also common for a few equipped vehicles to act as primary recovery assets. It's essential to distribute the load and not overly rely on a single winch for repeated recoveries. In short, the winch is not the bad guy.

Congratulations @Sameer D. for reaching the Fewbie Level with Carnity Offroad Club. Looking forward to seeing you growing further and helping others to learn the art of offroading in a safe environment. Please make sure your Carnity user profile is always updated with all the latest Emergency contact details. P.S. Trip lead might deny your participation if you don't have required off-road gear. FEWBIE Drives Attended (Indicative) Minimum 5 Newbie drives are required within last 3 months for Fewbie promotion. What you'll learn Basic dune and sand reading Self-recovery techniques Shoveling at right place Crawling out of difficult situations Blip Blip - Coordinate steering and gas control Basic side sloping and hill climb Basic ridge riding and criss crossing Basic control over technical dunes Slightly faster pace desert driving Ability to manage stuck/refusals with radio Learn to control and avoid fishtailing Never fight or challenge gravity Skills required Enthusiastic and positive attitude Willingness to learn and help others Presence of mind and attention to detail Car Worthiness Any 4x4 vehicle with low range gearing Suitable approach and departure angle Off-road gear required Safety flag, tire deflator, tire pressure gauge, shovel, fire extinguisher, medical kit, radio (walkie-talkie), air compressor. Drive teamwork Manage second lead and sweep positions upon request Intuitive and proactive to support Trip Lead Observe recoveries and offer help, when needed Drive Joining Join Newbie and Fewbie drives Forum participation Active participation on the forum Share drive experience + feedback Share drive pictures in the gallery Post trip report after the drive

Oh interesting, will look in to this…hadn’t been aware that was a thing…

Congratulations @Sameer D. for the new adventures 👍

@Ale Vallecchi thank you

@Ale Vallecchi, perfect really looking forward to doing both drives! Pity that I cannot make the Friday one as well, but work gets in the way of that one. My 1st FB+ drive last Saturday was a real eye opener and immense fun. However, the longer exploration style drives are my 1st love.

That would be great, @Ale Vallecchi- thank you. Looking forward to joining the adventure!

Dear @Andrew John Melvill dear @RiadJL, considering the ample availability of remaining open spots for this drive, I'll be happy to add you to the participants' list, if you are OK with it. Thanks a lot.

Congratulations @Adam Black for reaching the Fewbie Level with Carnity Offroad Club. Looking forward to seeing you growing further and helping others to learn the art of offroading in a safe environment. Please make sure your Carnity user profile is always updated with all the latest Emergency contact details. P.S. Trip lead might deny your participation if you don't have required off-road gear. FEWBIE Drives Attended (Indicative) Minimum 5 Newbie drives are required within last 3 months for Fewbie promotion. What you'll learn Basic dune and sand reading Self-recovery techniques Shoveling at right place Crawling out of difficult situations Blip Blip - Coordinate steering and gas control Basic side sloping and hill climb Basic ridge riding and criss crossing Basic control over technical dunes Slightly faster pace desert driving Ability to manage stuck/refusals with radio Learn to control and avoid fishtailing Never fight or challenge gravity Skills required Enthusiastic and positive attitude Willingness to learn and help others Presence of mind and attention to detail Car Worthiness Any 4x4 vehicle with low range gearing Suitable approach and departure angle Off-road gear required Safety flag, tire deflator, tire pressure gauge, shovel, fire extinguisher, medical kit, radio (walkie-talkie), air compressor. Drive teamwork Manage second lead and sweep positions upon request Intuitive and proactive to support Trip Lead Observe recoveries and offer help, when needed Drive Joining Join Newbie and Fewbie drives Forum participation Active participation on the forum Share drive experience + feedback Share drive pictures in the gallery Post trip report after the drive

Awesome!! It’s been a lot of fun so far. Thanks to everyone who has driven out there with me on these first few drives. I really appreciate the time you’ve all taken to introduce me to this new hobby in a safe manner and teach me the basic skills.

Congratulations @Mahesh_

Congrats @Adam Black 👏😎

Congratulations @Mahesh_ enjoy the new level:)

Congratulations @Adam Black enjoy the new level

Congratulations @Sameer D. enjoy teh new level

Congratulations @Cristian Enjoy the new level

Removing the winch is a good idea and also after that you can look at removing this extra heavy bumper. If it is same as your profile pic, it's an Australian-style metal bumper for avoiding Kangaroo hits, as they mostly drive on flat sand. For dunes, you need the best power-to-weight ratio, being JK (slightly underpowered than JL), cutting the weight should be your top priority.

Thanks, @Luke K P - that's a helpful perspective. The Jeep has fairly good clearance as is, however having something that won't easily be damaged (i.e. a lighter/smaller metal bumper) will give peace of mind. I'm thinking the winch might be worth shelving for a while. Might take a look at taking mine off for now as a partial weight-saving step. Can always put it back on later.

Great work on moving to Fewbie Level. Im sure you'll have a great time learning lots of new skills and tackling some fun challenges!

wow thats a solid bumper! When I put a steel bumper on my pajero (mostly for clearance after i damaged the plastic one.. i had it made of thinner steel and came to around 20kg. I didnt notice it making much of a difference other than clearance + the few times it hit a dune there was no discernable marking/ damage.. 20kg vs ~80kg is a pretty big difference tho. while i dont have a winch ive been dragged out of stucks a few times by those who have them. My view is that they are a great connivence to save time in the extreme heat on someone elses recovery instead of doing it the 'slow way' with kinetic ropes for those very very stuck situations.. but sometimes recovery is the fun part of the day and problem solving with the ropes is enjoyable. TLDR; thats a super heavy front combo imho, dont think a winch is *really* needed if you driving in a big group with experienced leaders.