Roy Armale

Sorry Everyone, car situation again, hearing some strange noises when i put it into 4-wheel mode and don't want to take risks.

Gonna miss this one.

@Ale Vallecchi I broke my driver side sway bar link this morning so I can't make tomorrow anymore since it's Friday and my mechanic is off. 

Sorry about the last minute drop out... Which I could still make it!

15 hours ago, Ilya said:

Lifting by itself improves the car's geometry (approach/departure/break over angles) which is critical for sand. While ground-axel distance is not really important here (it would be critical when you drive in mud or forest). Plus you lift the car to accommodate larger tires (so the lift itself is not a goal, rather an interim step)

 

Could be an interesting discussion if we can do a proper comparison (same car, same tires). But I don't think it was ever made (happy to participate in this kind of test btw). Otherwise its all subjective 

 

100% correct, but Jeeps still have lot of power (+ regearing +cold air intake if really needed)

Interested in that test! I've got Fox 2.0 shocks right now and am switching to bypass by the end of the month, so I can do a pre-post, but it will have my bias (and my need not to regret spending more) so a side by side would be awesome.

8 minutes ago, Anoop Nair said:

thanks Roy @Roy Armale for the detailed explanation. I am curious to see how the e-lockers work in sand in real life situations, let's wait and see. By the way, do you mind telling me how much was the cost for e locker and how was the quote for the air locker with compressor set up. thanks again 

Hey @Anoop Nair I don't know how people feel about links to products and suppliers here and I haven't figured out how to DM!

Generally: LSD = 2-3K AED, e-locker 3-4K AED, Air Locker 5-8K AED (big gap due to compressor, etc.. and manual labor)

Thanks a lot @Ale Vallecchi, looking forward to it!

6 hours ago, Anoop Nair said:

Hi @Roy ArmaleHow is the e lockers in the desert? Have you installed it only on the rear or rear and front. My understanding is that it has a ball bearing system which will cause the diff lock to engage only after quarter or half rotation of the wheel once you flip the switch and again disengages and reengages when you go in reverse. Does that cause any issue? Did you consider air or manual lockers as an alternative. Would love to hear more as I was exploring locker installation options as I have no diff lock currently (as it is a sports trim) and the general consensus i got from the online community is to go with air lockers. @Alexander Alcala do you have any recommendation on lockers. 

Hey @Anoop Nair 

I’d rather not give any advice till I’ve got more experience and trial. 

What I did:

1. Have a 2014 sport with a clutch-based LSD that wore out (some models have it, you can check yours with your VIN, it’s called trac-lok, different from BLD which is on most Wranglers)
2. Considered Yukon LSD, ARB Air Locker, and Eaton-Style E-locker rather than replacing it with another trac-lok.
3. Saw that Air Lockers work best, but need a big and expensive setup, so decided against it because I’d rather put the money in bypass shocks.
4. Saw that e-lockers have the issue you mentioned, but has been reduced with the new models. Also, in the sand the effect of the half spin is not as impactful as when you’re stuck on a rock. Plus, I’m a believer in locking when you begin the challenging section, not when you get stuck.
5. Spoke to some wrangler enthusiasts and ex-racers who agreed on e-locking.
6. Installed it and now testing with/without in different situations to see how it feels.
7. Did not put a locker on the front because the Dana 30 diff has a chance failing with a locker when you push it and I don’t find that a risk worth taking.

Keep in mind, this is all research-based and theory. I’m not the right person to give advice, I’m just outlining my process. More experienced Wrangler desert drivers would be better suited to advise.

13 minutes ago, Frederic said:

Hi @Roy Armale

Larger tyres will indeed provide a bit of lift, but i find a lift kit more helpful for that as bigger tyres will now mess with your gearing.

I do not understand your issue with LSD. The rear locker is only being activated in case you get stuck, so why would it wear out prematurely or cause issues ? E-Locker is more helpful for rock crawling where you would engage it more often.

Hey @Frederic

Lift: The lift kit is better than larger tires. The main benefits of the lift are approach angle, break-over angle, departure angle, and clearance. With an independent suspension, all that applies evenly. However, with a fixed axle, the clearance part does not apply to your differential because it is “under” the springs, so it does not get lifted. For rock-crawling, this is less of an issue because you manage it through articulation, line, avoiding rocks under you where the differential is located. On sand, especially when cross-crossing, you don’t have that option, so wranglers can face differential drag on the sand. Larger tires help with that one aspect.

LSD: nothing against it! My comment was on clutch-based LSD (does not apply to plate or torsion, which are better for desert) because our tires spin a lot in the sand and the LSD will kick in very often and at high speed (anytime the tire speed is not aligned). It will work, but its clutch pack will wear out quickly and affect your diff oil over time. It doesn’t affect your driving experience negatively, just your wallet. I had the option of repairing mine, putting a plate LSD (Yukon) or an e-locker. I decided to experiment with the e-locker.

E-Locker: Helpful on larger dune climbs when you want uninterrupted evenly distributed torque to the tires during the climb. My experience is limited here, but I’ll keep trying out the different options and report back on the “real world” effect.

1 minute ago, Ale Vallecchi said:

@Roy Armale, are you still interested in joining the drive? Thanks.

yeap

I've researched this stuff to death and am simply writing the info and experience of others, I am not experienced enough to give a personal view.

1. The lift kit helps a wrangler, but is a little misleading because the lift happens above the differential because we are on fixed axels. That means the tire size is the lift (ground to differential)
2. I regret my Fox 2.0 shocks. Yes, monotube is good, but if you're spending the money on shocks, get a bypass, even if it's a cheaper brand. The desert is all about multiple small/medium vibrations, which is the opposite of rock crawling and a tuned bypass outperforms the big brands.
3. Larger tires means less power. If you get 35s with anything less than 4.11 (default Rubicon) you will struggle a lot. There are plenty of guides online about that to check (changes by engine and transmission)

Those are just things to keep in mind while you do your research.

Hi Everyone, 

Reviving this thread after a long period of travel and then a return to Dubai!

I got my gearing and differentials checked, 2 things popped up:

1. I'm on a 3.71 (not great for 33 inch tires)
2. I have a clutch-based LSD (wears out in the desert and was causing some of the issues)

So, I've re-geared to 4.56 and swapped the clutch LSD with an e-locker. This has helped a lot with desert driving.

@Frederic the consensus from the Wrangler drivers that I've been talking to around tires is that larger ones help reduce the drag from our differential since the only way to get clearance for that is tire size and not a lift. With the re-gearing, the tire size seems to work and is aligned with the chart that I shared. 

I'll write back once I have more experience and am talking less theoretically!

Can I be waitlisted as a first drive please?

4 hours ago, M.Seidam said:

Upon instructions from @Veedooshee , see how @Roy Armale Nicly self recovered . 👍

 

@Veedooshee your calmness and ability to deliver prompt and useful instructions is a skill I want to learn from you. Thank you.

Also, thanks a lot for posting this @M.Seidam  because it brings up a very important conversation around a topic that @Brette and I had that day and think might benefit a few people: Gearing Ratios

Apologies in advance for the long post.

@Frederic your input would be very appreciated as a seasoned manual Wrangler driver

To begin, I drive a manual 2014 JK (3.6L Pentastar) with the worst gear ratio (XXXXX Auto said it might be a 3.2)

I bought it used 4 months ago with approximately 33 inch tires on it that I don't want to pay to change till they are worn out. This means that I am completely out of the "effective off-roading combination", see attached chart or this site: https://prodigyperformance.com/blog/jeep-wrangler-gear-ratio-calculator/

If you watch the video, you'll notice a lag between the first attempt (jolty, too much engine) and the last as I went into 4-Lo (smooth recovery)

I know that recovery should happen in 4-Lo, no discussion there, but that affects a lot of other things. Look at how easily I was able to follow instructions when the power was "effective" rather jolt the car around. It also affects my clutch. @Veedooshee you might remember the smell of the clutch from my 4-Hi attempt.

This gearing caused me to lose power several times when the convoy lost momentum in soft sand. I would have to switch to 4-Lo every time to get through areas that should be relatively easy. I never thought much of it because most my off-roading has been on rocks and I'm in 4-Lo for all that.

When we got to the last area and went up the steep hill, the same loss of power happened during my first attempt. I did another attempt in 4-Lo and was able go further easily by starting in 3rd gear and moving up as I gathered speed. THIS IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS OR CARS THAT HAS AUTOMATIC LOCKERS IN 4-LO. @Brette and I debated even trying, but I had read that it is ok on enough forums and we were relatively close to the road.

I spoke to a few garages about re-gearing (which I think I will do) and a few told me not to re-gear, but to start off-roading in the sand on 4-Lo while using higher gears (4-6) instead of 4-Hi in lower gears (mostly 1and 2). Both options remove the strain from the clutch and enables better management of dune inclines and soft sand, but the second option takes much more attention to the drive-shaft. I am still of the opinion that I should re-gear.

If you have reached the end of this post, thank you for your patience. If it is in the wrong place, I can move it to the Wrangler threads. However, I would appreciate any experience or feedback on the situation.

Thanks a lot for the drive lead @Brette and for the great advice throughout @M.Seidam.

@Veedooshee thank you for the report, but mostly for the support when I was stuck the many times and for everyone's patience while it happened!

Learned a lot on this drive, including what "not" to do on etiquette from our uninvited guests on the ride, as well as a lot about my car and the clutch/power situation at lower speeds. @Brette can you remind me who are the manual (stick shift) wrangler drivers so that I mention them in the thread we talked about relating to the gearing and 4Hi Vs Low for the hill climbs?

@Clay Neddo good to see you again, @Paolo Pellegrini thanks for the patience being behind me, and @Simon Ducos I'll send you a few videos I got of you since I was chasing you.

Best,

Roy

10 hours ago, Clay Neddo said:

My first newbie drive too!

It will be great to see you again @Roy Armale

I did not get to meet you on the absolute newbie drive @Brette I look forward to it this time.

Awesome @Clay Neddo see you there!

Thanks a lot @Brette , tried to aim for the Abu Dhabi one so that I don't overload this drive but it's too early a wake up to get there on time! 

Looking forward to driving you again. 

Please add me to the waitlist as my 1st drive.

The 3 things that are gonna affect your lighting is function (flood v/s spot v/s combo), location (bumper, hood/windshield, roof), and price.

LEDs (especially strips/bars) are cheap and give you the combo. Otherwise you need to do some mixing and matching.

If I wanna super honest, the location is more about aesthetics. The most functional location is a smaller (20 inch) bar on your bumper, you can very optionally support that with a couple of hood/windshield lights for spread (you need to angle them outwards).

The price is more connected with the longevity than performance. You'll find a lot of really bright lights for cheap, but they don't come with proper warranties.

My approach is dualistic:

1. Get cheaper ones and try them out so that if I regret a location or level of brightness I can replace parts without too much crying in the corner.
2. Commit when they break down and I have experience to buy expensive stuff.

I'm also a "balance form with function" person, so I'll admit to sometimes compromising to get a better look. For example, I have roof lights that create a higher drag on the highway, but I love the way they look. Let's face it, if I wanted aerodynamics, I wouldn't have bought a brick with wheels.

My setup is in the pics, I can tell you where I got the lights from if you're interested, but putting 2 of the roof lights on your bumper is more than enough, what I did was overkill for the balanced look.

That said, don't skimp on installation. The wrong angle (especially for roof lights) will give a strong hood reflection and mess up your view, no chance of that with bumper lights that you can probably install at home (that's how i tried my first set but the wiring took a while the first time)

Hey @Chaitanya D,

I meant learning progress, not promotion.

My question was about which class to take since there are 2.

Option 1: Desert Driving Masterclass (feels like I will re-learn things I already know)
Option 2: Advanced Desert Driving Course (might be too early for me)

Which one do you recommend?

@Chaitanya D @Lorenzo Candelpergher

Thanks again for everything and for the report. I'm thinking of speeding my progress a little by taking one of the trainings, but I feel like the basic one would be too basic and would prefer doing the fewbie/intermediate.

Since you've seen me out there, what would you recommend?

Roy

Just wanted to thank @Chaitanya D @Lorenzo Candelpergher and @Brette for the great drive this morning and for dealing with a lot of ups and downs (see what I did there?) with all of us.

It was a great intro to riding with Carnity and I learned a lot. 

Can't wait for the upcoming drives with all of you.

I'm another guy on team Manual Transmission!

I know this is an old thread, but since there are multiple answer pieces, I thought I'd consolidate into a more comprehensive one.

Yes, the Rubicon is the better "stock" off-roader. This is because:

1. Both Axles are heavier duty (Dana 44) while the Sport and Sahara have a Dana 44 in the rear and a Dana 30 in the front. The fact that the Rubicon has 2 Dana 44 axles means:
   1. It can handle larger tires, which is why it comes with 33 Inch A/T tires and can go to 37 inches without risking the front differential breaking under stress
   2. It can have a locking differential both in the front and back, which it does (selectable e-locker)
2. It has a different gear ratio (4.11 v/s 3.73 on most Sport/Shara editions). This simply means that the gears send more power to the tires "earlier" (when you go into 4-Low, you kinda "regear" your car to send the power early)

There are a few other differences, but those are the main ones.

The Sahara is like the Sport from a performance perspective, but has the comfort add-ons.

Should you care? Should you save your money and do your own mods? Should you go for a Sahara and then make it beefier?

That's up to you since you can do everything from lifts to re-gearing to adding diffs.

However, your limiting factor will be the front axle and differential because it's expensive to modify (AED10K - AED15K at least) . That only matters if you expect to rock crawl (not much of that in the UAE) or get some air time while jumping dunes (can bend the smaller Sport/Sahara Axle) and if you're going that hard-core, you're already spending a lot on the upgrades, might as well do the whole thing your way.

Hi Everyone

I've been off-road into the wadis and a couple of times into the desert, but please don't consider "experience" since I was with other beginners and might need to unlearn a lot of it.

Saw the video, Totally Agreed to the COVID post, have clearance, recovery points, deflator, compressor, off road flag, and radio.

See you there.

On 6/4/2021 at 8:30 PM, Cornelius Wessels said:

They are still available @Roy Armale have not advertised them as of yet, waiting for winter...previous owner of my car upgraded everything, gears, engine the works so I don't struggle for speed (car just becomes a handful)...ill probably sell as a wheel and Tyre set not just tires...but that obvs depends on market 

Cool, I might be interested.

Are they still for sale? New to the platform and not sure how to send a PM.