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Fredy, don't forget to count the cars before and after...!

Good afternoon All ! Thanks for signing up ! Confirmed for the drive: @Michael Chattle@Felix Obst@Bjoern@Fabien Monleau@Rob H@James Lovell@Sebb@Hugo@Amr Aydin @DP1011@Simon D Waitlisted Members: Beide Worku @Beide Worku Tareq Al Turq @Tareq Al Turq Marketa Dobesova @Marketa Dobesova I wanted to share the planned area for coming weekend. Below you can see the Bermuda triangle we are planning to concquer. The Idea will be to drive along the pylon track and make our way to Marker 1 (top of the triangle). Then move in a straight as possible line to Marker 2, and then further on to Marker 3, and from there back to Marker 1. As you all know we don't usually drive in a straight line in the desert, so the challenging part will be to try to stick to that line as much as possible, even if that included going over slip faces and other obstacles This also means instead of the smooth flowing drives that i am usually well known for, this could be quite an intense drive with lots of struggles 😁 Anyways i am sure we will have fun in the sand as always and can afterwards print out a screenshot of our track and it will look 99% like below. Although that would be a real bonus If you have not driven in the dark yet, no worries. If you have additional night lights on your 4x4 that will help but it's not mandatory as you will be following the convoy anyways. See you soon !

In this topic i am trying to go a little bit deeper into the whole concept of tyre sizes for offroading. Often, we start off with the stock 31inch tyres and find ourselves upgrading to a 32-33- or even 35 and more inch tyres, which might give benefits, or not ? First of all, we need to split into two categories: 1. Offroading in sand/dunes aka dune bashing. 2. Offroading in mountains aka rock crawling or wadi bashing. It is important not to confuse both, and they are almost opposite in terms of wheel size and i will explain this further below. We will not be discussing the fuel economy in relation of tyre size in below topic, nor the effects of the odometer reading, but rather focus on the performance aspect Category 1: Offroading in the sand/dunes What are the key parameters that determine the performance for driving in the dunes ? * Tyre weight (relation with overall size). * Surface area of each tyre on the sand when deflated. * Rolling Resistance * Tyre profile (aggressive knobby vs smooth HT tyre). Looking at above parameters, we would conclude that we are looking for a light tyre. The tyre profile in sand is not so important while driving but deflation is critical, and an AT tyre can be deflated further down safely compared to an HT tyre. We also noticed big differences during self recoveries on a smooth HT profile tyre vs a tyre with some moderate profile (AT tyres). Going for larger tyres results in higher weight on the axles, BUT seems to help with the contact patch area which is a good thing. So there is a balance that we are trying to strike. As a result of that you will see most offroaders in the dunes using similar tyres from the stock 31" to about 33" but not often 35" or more because of the negative effects that go along with that. (see re-gearing further down this topic). Category 2: Offroading in the mountains What are the key parameters that determine the performance for driving in the mountains ? * Surface area of each tyre on the rocks when deflated. * Tyre profile: AT Tyre is needed (HT tyre is not suitable for regular offroading in the mountains). * Ground clearance. As you can see, the key parameters for driving in the mountains are somewhat different because during rock-crawling you will be mostly in Low gearing and won't be needing the full top-end horsepower of your 4x4. The focus is more on using good torque and getting good clearance to overcome those boulders and other obstacles. As a result of that, bigger tyres would be performing better, simply due to the fact that you will win ground clearance without having to lift your 4x4, and the extra surface area of those tyres will give you better grip as well. And this is the main reason why we see so many Jeeps and Bronco's in the US on 35"-37" tyres crawling over boulders Re-Gearing: What's that all about ? source: https://www.4-wheeling-in-western-australia.com/differential-gear-ratio.html The differential gear ratio on a stock standard 4x4, are made to suit the tire diameter which the vehicle is originally came with. Using bigger diameter wheels/tires with stock ratios will cause more wear and tear on clutch, driveline and engine. Low range gear will also suffer as 1st gear low will now roll too fast as the tires are bigger, this becomes a problem when descending steep hills and climbing rocks and logs. Example: a stock 2005+ Toyota Hilux has 29 inch wheels/tires and fitting 33 inch rubber is quite bigger (4 inches in diameter bigger) this will cause the engine and entire driveline more stress and more power is then required due to the larger rolling resistance. The final gear ratio is suited for 29 inch, this ratio in this particular case is 3:5, referring to a chart it will state the same (29' recommended ratio is 3:5) and looking at 33 inch diameter the chart will recommend 4:1. Going by the chart any higher will make the 4x4 rev too much at highway speeds causing poor fuel economy. Changing the crown wheel and pinion is how the ratio is modified. Basically installing a new or reconditioned crown wheel and pinion with the recommended ratio will bring the 4wd driveline back to stock specification rpm and fuel usage. Once differential gear ratio mod is done the vehicle will regain its 1st gear low range and take off in high range will be improved or even back to stock. This chart is an approximate tyre size to differential gear ratio; it’s based on an RPM at 105 km/h (65 mph) and 4th gear on a manual transmission or 3rd gear on an automatic gear box (1:1 gear ratio). This is only a guide to get a general idea of which ratios would suit the vehicle in question. To get an accurate RPM the following steps and formula will give an accurate answer: Take a drive and record the rpm at 105 km/h (65 mph), the next step is to work out what the current ratios are in the vehicle. This can be revealed by calling the manufacturer or even calling a differential repairer giving him/her the Vehicle Identification Number, also known as VIN. Once all this information is known use the following formula to get the accurate differential gear ratio for the larger tires: Example: The rpm is 2806 at 105 km/h (65 mph), the current tires are 29 inch, the factory ratio is 3.73 and the new size upgraded tires are 33 inch. RPM: 2806 Stock tires: 29 inch Stock ratio: 3.727 New Tyre size: 33 inch 2806 = 65 x 3.727 x 336 / 29 (rpm = mph (not km/h) x diff ratio x 336 / tire size) Now the correct rpm is known for the vehicle (2806), the next step is working out what ratios are available for the vehicle, some makes and models won’t have as many choices as others. Say the following 3 ratios are available 3.909, 4.100 & 4.88. The new tire size wanting to be fitted is 33 inch and the rpm needs to be a close to the 2806 as possible in order to keep it to stock specs. Just a quick scan at the differential gear ratio chart it’s obvious that a ratio of 3.909 is too low at 2587 rpm, ratio of 4.88 is too high at 3230 rpm. But looking at 4.10 with the rpm at 2713 is the closest to 2809 stock rpm. New Specs: RPM: 2713 New tires: 33 inch New ratio: 4.10 Please share your experiences / feedback !

Fredy i like this idea of bermuda triangle . we are the offroaders are dreamers , wanderes and explorers .. even in the darkest mysterious spots like Bermuda Triangle . wish to join you but truly i have another triangle in same time to attend with family . my son high school graduation ceremony.

dear @Thomas Collins Jayakumar I believe you have done a masterclass and hence you can join this drive . Note the mandatory required gears for this drive being - shovel, deflator, compressor, radio and a flag. Please do understand we are trying to sort these internally as well but since we have leads from different work schedules their reply or coms can take some time. Again to reiterate - especially at a newbie level all these clarifications are done for the sole intention being - to make the experience safe to all including you.

Hi @Thomas Collins Jayakumarthe move towards twilight drives and night drives is mainly due to the season. Usually our morning drives are from 6AM-7AM up to around 10-11AM, but as you can see by that time we are hitting close to 40°C before exiting the drive (and hoping there are no delays due to stucks or breakdowns). In these temperatures it is not advisable to expose your 4x4 to offroading and we will usually see more cars starting to overheat, apart from the fact that our trip leads and supporting members will struggle more with the recoveries and shoveling You will still see morning drives, but generally less than in the colder season. Throughout May till September it will be mostly late afternoon, twilight, or night drives, with the occasional morning drive that would start really early. Anyways, welcome to the club and see you soon in one of the drives !

Looking forward to my 1st night drive! No special lights required? (just checking).

Thanks @Arun Menon - no worries - Can you please RSVP and add yourself to Waiting list for the time being .

Oh! An edit to my post: the size I went for is 285/70R17. In both cars (LWB and SWB) I had to remove the mud flaps and in the SWB I had to cut the inner corner where the front mud flaps are attached. Regarding tire rubbing, this leads into another interesting conversation : suspension etc. In my case I have a 2.5” lift in the SWB and what I’ve done is add longer bumpstops and tested the shocks setting to prevent the tire from rubbing while driving in the desert. On a normal road, I can keep the shocks in the softest setting and won’t experience any rubbing. The LWB has a 2” lift and Yokohama LT285/70R17 on stock wheels, and no issues at all with regards to rubbing.

Hi @DP1011 My apologies, I was just looking at the post and event details. And may have inadvertently added myself to the Manage tab. Happy to be put on the waiting list since I'm not fully confirmed I'm available on Friday evening. I've been driving with other Offroading groups for little over a year with 6-8 drives now. Recently acquired a new off-roader with the required lighting for night drives. Looking forward to joining group drives soon.

😂😂😂 I love the idea!!!

Hi @Rajesh NG, if you have done a masterclass , it should be fine to join this drive and then you can do your self declaration on the forum for review and getting to next level

Hello @Theo09 no special lights needed. Regular lights on high beam with fog lamps should be okay when driving with a convoy. As a courtesy to fellow drivers just ensure your lights aren't glaring them @Arun Menon can you elaborate more on the off roading experience - weather it was with another club of just camping / barbeque rides? If you have a newly acquired ride/car for off roading - I strongly suggest you to join a regular Newbie drive during day time to get acquainted with it ( unless you have driven already). Once you finish your mandatory newbie drive for joining this club, you can do the self declaration to get to next level for review Thank you @DP1011 for your advises ❤️

Thanks @Frederic for the advice! I really don't want to regear my jeep, but extra sidewall might be something to consider maybe I should go down a Rim size but for now my tires are perfectly fine 😃

Hi @Benjamin https://tiresize.com/comparison/ You are right, these are 32" tyres as you can see from above screenshot. That size works great but has a couple of downsides: - 20 inch offroad tyres are a bit less common in the market. - the 55 sidewall is quite low and would be a bit more prone to popouts vs a 70 or 75 size sidewall (but that would make the overall wheel bigger again. The Jeep OEM tyres will do fine and are suited for a nice blend of on-road and different styles of offroad, and that is why you've been happy with them. In comparison with the Rubicon, that has smaller rims (17") they are able to go for a bigger sidewall as they have 285/70/17 if i remember correctly. That would be a 33" inch overall diameter approx. If you want to go bigger on that same 20" rim i would advise to go for a 275/60/20 or 275/65/20, and not much more than that. Otherwise once you reach 35" overall size you will be entering re-gearing terrain

If its the tread block size you were focused on @Gary F then look at the light truck version of the G015 which is what I ended up chosing. A lot larger then the 275/75 G015 tread blocks but you still retain the G015 tread pattern and the side wall is 10 ply versus 8 ply on the K02's

Congratulations @Patrick van der Loo Enjoy the new Level

There is another brand you should consider - BF Goodrich Trail Terrain, which is what I have in my Y61 SWB too, not too heavy of a tire. The size I went for is 285/75R17. Prior to these I had Cooper, were heavy, and then Geolandar A/T G015, walls starting showing signs of cracking very soon. Now, if your car is manual, then you can possibly dismiss the fact of getting heavy or wider tires, because the end gear ratio of a Y61 with MT is 4.375 vs AT 3.545, therefore it will handle those tires better, you could even think of getting Wrangler Duratrac

Hi @Arun Menon Welcome to the club:) I see this is your first drive? The manage tab is for Leads/Support . To join the drive you need to join by clicking on "going" tab. However, since this is NB and above drive, can u also pls share your previous off-roading experience, if any?

I have encountered it twice as your second lead,your like a lizard who suddenly disappears 😅,hope fully your brake light are working now😅 🤞

Nothing like cold hard data to give assurance , I’m still looking for tires to get off the mud terrains, torn between the Geolanders and BF Goodrich. Not seeing any of these Michelin tires pop up on the usual local tire pricing sites. Guess we need to call around.

Hello, I have 15 drives+ with other clubs and finished your masterclass with Kailas 2 weeks back. He has recommended i can join the fewbie after this first mandatory newbie drive.

It’s a drive I’ve been waiting to post as well for a long time… and glad to see the usual suspects!!!

Hi @Rajesh NG - Welcome to the club ! Can you confirm your previous off-roading experience if any ? FYI, this is a Newbie and above drive, and since its a night drive, Absolute Newbie are restricted . Hence would help us accordingly advise you , if you can share your previous experience on off-roading.

Congratulations @Krishna R for reaching the Intermediate Level with Carnity Offroad Club. Looking forward to seeing you growing further and helping others to learn the art of offroading in a safe environment. Please make sure your Carnity user profile is always updated with all the latest Emergency contact details. P.S. Trip lead might deny your participation if you don't have required off-road gear. INTERMEDIATE Drives Attended (Indicative) Minimum 10 Fewbie Plus drives are required within last 6 months for Intermediate promotion. What you'll learn Basic GPS and navigational skills Basic tow rope and winch recoveries Extreme side sloping and long hill climb Tall dunes ridge riding and criss crossing Precise control over technical dunes Fast pace desert driving Clear radio communication skills Advance recovery skills Self recover from dune crest Soft sand recovery Pop-out fixing Skills required Adventurous and thrill seeker but in a safe manner Level headed under stressful situations Responsible, dependable and accountable Car Worthiness Capable 4x4 vehicle with low range gearing Suitable approach and departure angle High profile tires Off-road gear required Safety flag, tire deflator, tire pressure gauge, shovel, fire extinguisher, medical kit, radio (walkie-talkie), air compressor, tool kit, rated recovery rope and 2 rated shackles, GPS. Drive teamwork Manage center forward position with Trip Lead’s permission Learn/assist recoveries under Trip Lead’s supervision Re-route convoy and coordination, when needed Learn to lead small portion of Intermediate drive under Marshal supervision Drive Joining Join Newbie, Fewbie, Intermediate and Exploration drives only Forum participation Active participation on the forum Share drive experience + feedback Share drive pictures in the gallery Post trip report after the drive

Congratulations @Patrick van der Loo for reaching the Intermediate Level with Carnity Offroad Club. Looking forward to seeing you growing further and helping others to learn the art of offroading in a safe environment. Please make sure your Carnity user profile is always updated with all the latest Emergency contact details. P.S. Trip lead might deny your participation if you don't have required off-road gear. INTERMEDIATE Drives Attended (Indicative) Minimum 10 Fewbie Plus drives are required within last 6 months for Intermediate promotion. What you'll learn Basic GPS and navigational skills Basic tow rope and winch recoveries Extreme side sloping and long hill climb Tall dunes ridge riding and criss crossing Precise control over technical dunes Fast pace desert driving Clear radio communication skills Advance recovery skills Self recover from dune crest Soft sand recovery Pop-out fixing Skills required Adventurous and thrill seeker but in a safe manner Level headed under stressful situations Responsible, dependable and accountable Car Worthiness Capable 4x4 vehicle with low range gearing Suitable approach and departure angle High profile tires Off-road gear required Safety flag, tire deflator, tire pressure gauge, shovel, fire extinguisher, medical kit, radio (walkie-talkie), air compressor, tool kit, rated recovery rope and 2 rated shackles, GPS. Drive teamwork Manage center forward position with Trip Lead’s permission Learn/assist recoveries under Trip Lead’s supervision Re-route convoy and coordination, when needed Learn to lead small portion of Intermediate drive under Marshal supervision Drive Joining Join Newbie, Fewbie, Intermediate and Exploration drives only Forum participation Active participation on the forum Share drive experience + feedback Share drive pictures in the gallery Post trip report after the drive

@Benjamin I believe they are 255/70 r18 not r20 the Sahara wheel is 18 inch.

Hi @Chaitanya D The off-roading experiences I've had, have been club drives with Marshals providing convoyed sweeps and lead. Embarrassed to say I've yet to actually go camping or barbeque rides I've done 5 rides with the new vehicle and have a comfortable feel of the rig. But looking to get more experience in general. Will look forward to daytime rides

Congrats @Patrick van der Loo...see you on IM dives soon!!

@Mario Cornejo - were you able to fit the 285/75/R17s without any changes or cutting to the wheel-well? Have you had any rubbing issues that you needed to account for? I ask because I considered it, but it's a significantly bigger tyre (~33.8") than the stock 275/65/R17 (~31.1"). But if it's fitting well then it's a great tyre to extract almost 1.4" of lift out of.

Congratulations @Krishna R well done

Congratulations @Patrick van der Loo well deserved…👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Amazing!! look forward to seeing it mate! 😎😎

Thank you @Joji varghese I can join you in intermediate drives now Thank you @GauravSoniBhai. Looking forward! Thank you @Looper Thank you @Gary F Its actually the morning drive in sweihan.

Congratulations @Patrick van der Loo!!! Well deserved… hope to see you soon on sands!

Congratulations @Krishna R!

@Krishna RCongrats dear.. well done 👏

I am not sure, but what I am sure of is that I am not going to be seeing the rear view mirror 😂

Yes:)

Thank you @DP1011Bhai Thank you @Jaro Tuzinsky Yes, This weekend in Sweihan!

Well deserved @Patrick van der Loo congratulations! I am looking forward another common drive! This weekend?:)

@Patrick van der Loo Congrats! Always great to drive with you! https://www.amazon.ae/dp/B005BNZ9UM?ref=ppx_pop_dt_b_product_details&th=1. Guess they are more suitable for a bottle jack though.

Congratulations @Krishna R well deserved and enjoy this level of adrenaline 😎

Congratulations @Patrick van der Loo, well deserved and enjoy this level of adrenaline

@Patrick van der Loo Congrats Patrick. lets tear up the desert together!

Congrats @Krishna R

That statement is more made after seeing how BFG performs on different cars in the club and a couple of friends that i go camping with. On a powerful Jeep (280hp on 2000kg car), BFG will perform great as you have plenty of power anyways to deal with the fact that the tyre is heavier. Loss in climbing ability would be negligible. On a LWB Patrol Super Safari (250hp on 2600kg car), BFG will perform great on wadis and rocks, but become quite heavy on a car that's already a bit underpowered in stock version. Climbing big dunes would become an issue. People often think, "oh it's only 2,5kg per tyre difference" for example, but this is not static mass like your vehicle weight, but rotational mass, which has an effect on how the car accelerates. Anyhow you can sleep well at night @DP1011, as a Rubicon would fly up the dunes even on wooden wheels

I find soft tool bags a lot useful to store things in the vehicle. They are much more easy to carry plus you can place theM anywhere and they won’t move much and they don’t break. In my current setup I have a trolly tool bag containing random stuff + Amazon Basics backpack tool bag with actual tools + Ace Tool bag with kinetic rope and 3 piece shovel. All of this goes behind the bench seat if my Jeep and there isn’t any space for them to move from there. Silver lining of the puny trunk of a 2 door Jeep JL.

Ace hardware have some. I washed it using Stainless Steel Scourers to remove the garden words to make it ready for off-road