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Hi @Ashok chaturvedi, this is not an FJ-specific thingy, I have a marshal friend who drives his Jeep in 4L 3rd gear consistently and some Nissan buddies also drive in 4L 3rd gear. I will get into the general stuff first, and at the end dive specific to A750F transmission which is used by FJ Cruiser to answer your question mathematically 😁 1. Generally for older 4-speed & 5-speed automatic, people drive in 4H 2nd gear and downshift to 4H 1st gear when climbing or need more torque. In contrast for modern 6-speed & 7-speed automatic, some I've noticed drive in 4L 3rd or 4th gear. They're pretty similar, and I'll prove it mathematically at the end of this post... 2. My Nissan buddies drive in 4L 3rd gear because driving in 4L allows them to turn off VDC (Vehicle Dynamics Control - computer will try to brake to fix understeer & oversteer), TCS (Traction Control System - brakes spinning wheel + cut-off fuel to engine and/or close throttle valve to reduce torque) and ABLS (Active Brake Limited Slip - Nissan's version of Toyota A-TRAC), as can be seen from this manual section: 3. If you're already in 4L, during stucks you don't need to shift from 4H > Neutral > 4L > 1st gear 'cos you're already in 4L, which sounds like an excuse a lazy driver would make 😂 FJ Cruiser A750F transmission: 4H or 4L? These are the Gear Ratios for FJ Cruiser / any car with Toyota A750F transmission: Now I'll probably do a deeper dive with diagram what these different gear ratios mean, but for now I will use a cheat calculator to produce the numbers: Problem Question: I want to drive 50 km/h (31 mph) in sand, what do I use? *The 50km/h is intentional as some manuals recommend this speed when driving in 4L, and also on average we usually drive below this speed for Newbie to FewbiePlus Putting the A750 Gear Ratio numbers above, you can easily reach 50km/h in 4H 1st Gear after around 4000 rpm, which is what you'll probably do when climbing a steep dune... then shift to 2nd gear to keep RPM below 3000 for noise & fuel-efficiency. 3.727 : Differential Ratio / Final Axle Gear Ratio 31.6" : Tire Diameter, FJ stock is 265/70R17 31 mph : Desired Speed (50km/h) 3.520 : 1st Gear Ratio 4L and Gear Reduction Transfer Case in 4H is 1:1 (mentioned in A750F spec as High 1.000 above), but when you switch to 4L, it becomes 2.566:1 , this is why 4L in 1st Gear is slower and useful for crawling (but still with torque). But for the sake of fun, how much engine RPM do we need to make 31 MPH in 4LO 1st Gear ? Transmission Ratio now becomes = 2.566 (4LO) x 3.520 (1st Gear) = 9.032 Your Tachometer is usually maximum 7000 rpm, so this 4LO 1st gear will not do, let's skip to 4LO 3rd gear: Transmission Ratio now becomes = 2.566 (4LO) x 1.400 (3rd Gear) = 3.592 And there you have it, using 4LO in 3rd Gear, you will reach 50 km/h (31 mph) after about 4000 rpm engine speed... very similar to 4H in 1st Gear... To recap: If you trust the factory's book recommendation and will not go above 50 km/h in sand, then 4LO sounds safe as it disables all those pesky electronics (VDC, TCS, ABLS, ABS) without pulling any fuse. Otherwise if you're driving long-range dunes and flats and will go beyond 50 km/h in sand, you may want to use 4HI + kill-switch to ensure ABS, TCS, VSC are off.

The majority of the drivers here use Gaia as it is easy to use, and track drives: https://www.gaiagps.com Here is a very handy post from @Frederic explaining how to get going with it. https://carnity.com/forums/topic/15357-gaia-gps-for-beginners As most things go, you’ll soon discover that everything he writes is usually gold, and he leaves a lot of useful nuggets around in the forums

Sorry Fredy no comments for me on this topic.

Hi Guys, I am a little late to post this...Thanks @Asif Hussain for the great start. You were selfless in your approach submitting your vehicle for the sacrifice at the start, hope now car is okay, nothing major. May be out trip went off smoothly accomplishing great heights and drops clocking a lot of kms at a decent pace. Thanks @Shaaz Shafor the taking over, great drive it was - just out of the world stuff... @Looperas always my reliable partner to check how his wrangler is performing vs mine w.r.t temperature but I found he now has some extras 1) refrigerator useful for the evenings 2) winch useful for the drives 3) last but not the least, he also has a crawl mode on sand, which was loving demoed the previous night @Josh T. Good to see u.... @Karthikeyan Govindarajan Nice to see u, first time drive with you @Chris Wing will come to pick your brain if i went to buy the FJ - hope u will close your loop with all your country men soon @Xavier Treasurer Great guys, good meeting Pak @Zed where are the drone videos? @Xavier TreasurerSame here, after while meeting you, and was cannot forget your rescue attempt for Karthik with no showel, rope etc... ha ha but you offered him moral support we know.... @Jeepie Thanks always for you keeping the count of the flock from the back .... Great to travel with you, thanks for the LnM Menthols, after that I have not touched them See u all soon!!!!! PS: the first 9 minutes reach us to the farms. from the 9th to the 15th minutes is where the huge drops are captured.

@Mark D I bought one tablet holder, iOttie brand in Jumbo, which I sometimes use for my phone too and works perfectly during drives. I also bought a radio holder, Mobarmor brand also very good quality, there are (I think) a couple of off road garages where you can get this brand from, just do a quick search. Mobarmor website: https://www.mobarmor.com/ Tablet holder I got at Jumbo: https://www.jumbo.ae/iottie-easy-smart-tap-2-universal-tablet-mount-miscellaneous-HLCRIO141.html#variant_id=0441617-92073271142 Hope this helps.

Your FJ Cruiser has VF2A model Transfer Case, which is Chain-Driven, similar to the Jeep's one that my marshal friend (another club) drives for 4 years in 4LOW 3rd Gear all the time... I'd say if it's going to stretch the chain / decrease lifespan of transfer case, by now he would have gone through a transfer case rebuild, but he hasn't, so yeah no issue with driving 4LO 3rd Gear for a long time every weekend 😁 If you mean the Gear Box as in Transmission, then again nothing to worry much. I have rebuilt the torque converter & transmission for my Toyota and also replaced the Transfer Case gears (my LC is gear-driven not chain-driven) and the front-differential, so I get to see how these parts work as shown by the mechanics in the garage. Simplified in text it goes like this: Engine (rpm) >> Torque Converter >> Transmission (Gear Box) >> Transfer Case >> split into 2 in 4WD: rear propeller shaft to Rear Pumpkin/Diff + front propeller shaft to Front Pumpkin/Diff >> Finally, WHEELS! Though your FJ Cruiser's A750F transmission remains 5-speed with 5-gear ratios, the VF2A with gear reduction (4LO) makes your FJ to have "12 gears", here are the ratio table again if you missed it in my prev post: FJ Cruiser A750F “12-Gears” Transmission: 4High 1:1 ratio 1st Gear 2nd Gear 3rd Gear 4th Gear 5th Gear Reverse 3.520 2.042 1.400 1 0.716 3.224 4LOW 2.566:1 ratio (basically multiply above numbers x 2.566) 1st Gear 2nd Gear 3rd Gear 4th Gear 5th Gear Reverse 3.520 x 2.566 = 9.03 2.042 x 2.566 = 5.24 1.400 x 2.566 = 3.592 1 x 2.566 = 2.566 0.716 x 2.566 = 1.837 3.224 x 2.566 = 8.273 From these table you can see that driving 4H 1st Gear = 4LO 3rd Gear and driving 4LO 4th Gear feels like between 1st and 2nd gear (this is what people feel "more torquey").... and because the Transmission / Gear Box is before your Transfer Case that does the reduction, if any should fail it should be the Transfer Case first... Keep on experimenting @Ashok chaturvedi, only you can tell how to drive your car best, we here are just giving you more encouragement to do trial-and-error (hopefully with a bit of sound reasonings behind it to make you more confident in approaching whatever you choose best) 😉

Thanks @Ale Vallecchi it was the most nerve cracking ride I ever had. Thank you for providing me such a wonderful experience

Dear @Mark D As said by @Fredericgood question, not easy to answer. I went through many options, and found the most cost effective ones are the magnet ones. My car x owner used to use it, and I had to buy another phone cover to fix the metal plate, since metal and wireless charging did not work. When go in sand I just put the cover with metal cover. Another costly option and very strong, RAM mounts, I am using to hold the iPad 12.9in, and they have much more options for all devices. Unfortunately no much options in Amazon, but you can buy direct from USA.

Good day to All, I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone for a great drive but more so for the patience and support in fixing the LR3. @Srikumar thank you the help and awesome route, @Anish S good job with all the tugs and support. @Asif Hussain and @Chaitanya D thank you for finding the problem and making it possible to drive my car out that day. For those who didn't not see here is a picture with some the brushes stuck in the fan that stoped it from turning. The LR3 gave me no problems for the rest of the day and got me home safely, however she is in the shop now getting some attention. Worn engine mounts contributed to what happened and some lessons learned. I have uploaded more photos in the gallery to browse through. Stressful at some stages but all and all it was great drive with everyone, hope to see you all again. @Ali Shah, @Adnan Halepota, @Karthik Raptor. Cheers.

All. Any recommendations please, for a decent quality phone holder that isn’t going to fall off with the first bump my truck hits? Cheers

hi @Mario Cornejo , we camped in Al Quaa last weekend. And it was perfect because we checked the Moon Calendar and it was New Moon, so the place was so dark we could see the Bright Stars since 8pm. The next dark night seems to be 31st Dec, but you can try this weekend 9-Dec: Moon Phases Calendar for the month of December 2021 (moongiant.com) The spot we picked was this GPS Coord 23.53486406458191, 54.744255383291794 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/68fmFqbDdRqLQZEB8) ; near a service road servicing a camel farm so our non 4x4 friends can park their car and walk a bit inside... in reality the sedans cancelled and we have a Honda CRV and GMC Acadia AWDs, all they needed to do was deflate to 17psi and they were able to join our 4x4s into the desert. Drone footage of the camping area >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zdPgHM8cNLtFb3cA8vsH8zNtH5glGpJv/view?usp=sharing Pic below, the only time I use 4LO besides stuck: pulling the kids's sandboard slowly 😂 The next morning, plenty of technical sand for some offroad excursion, we went towards "The Green Pond" https://goo.gl/maps/JDnSNnbpH6AioMTq7 (second pic below)

Thank you @Vanessa8580

@Vanessa8580, since Suresh isn’t joining, could you add in waiting list, I’ll RSVP once it open. Hope my front bumper has chances to survive on this route:) Can I take my 5 year-old son by the way?

Thanks to your previous advise Zed- I have been tracking the AT oil temp in real time during drives using an android device and an OBD2.. I also have gone through the service manual to keep in mind the range the AT should work within … not a single drive it’s gone over 126c including the recent Liwa trip and driving in summer (… during a break I put into neutral and keep the car running which I read brings the temp down (and proven to for me). I haven’t tried a sustained 4L drive … Ashok if you do experiment with 4L then def leverage OBD2 to observe the AT temp and have this as a backdrop for a decision/review.

No I think you're right, it will largely depend on the car... when my Jeep friends with their 8-speed transmission drives in 4L 3rd or 4th and asked me to do the same, I'd say "I found my sweet spot and you found yours, doesn't matter as long as we get over the dunes just fine" 😁 I wouldn't dare drive in 4L just because another car with a different configuration does so, the same with transfer cases blowing up, probably best to check Transfer Case Temperature via ScanGauge/OBD PID during every break.... and fluids maintenance include transmission fluid & transfer case oil & diff gear oil.

Hi @Frederic fellow tech fan 🙂, In the case of FJ Cruiser that uses VF2A Transfer Case, it's Chain-Driven and uses Planetary Gear, which is better explained through a diagram and a video below: 1. Planetary Gear: there's only 1 Gear involved in Gear Reduction from 4H to 4LO, highlighted in Yellow in this Service Manual Diagram of FJ Cruiser Transfer Case: 2. Chain-Driven: When FJ Driver switches from 2WD to 4WD, it already engages the Chain Belt, so even in 4H the Chain is rotating and passing power to the front & rear diffs... Changing it to 4LO doesn't change the belt reaction, it simply moves the fork down so that 1 Gear from point #1 above is in-place and changes the ratio, thus spinning the belt slower (providing slower output to front & rear diffs). This is best explained in the video below starting at minute 13:55 👇 The beauty of Chain-Driven mechanism is that it will still work with no oil or little oil... this is why in our bicycle you rarely need to lubricate the chain between the "pedal gear" and the "wheel gear"... Gear-Driven Transfer Case like my LandCruiser is such a maintenance hassle requiring full lubrication to work, and a hard lesson learned for me who got a broken Transfer Case + broken front diff due to no gear oil inside the transfer case 😂😂😂 Source: http://www.differencebox.com/engineering/difference-between-chain-drive-and-gear-drive/

Dear @Asif Hussain thank you so much for a wonderful Liwa -Yellow truck experience. Thoroughly enjoyed it , being my first time in Liwa. @Sergio Big Dawg and @Simon Dawood great driving on this challenging terrain , was a treat to watch from the back. Thanks Sergio for sharing some wonderful videos. Catch up with you all some time soon👍

I have a Bulletpoint mount. Phone + Go Pro. It's robust and nice.

I have been using vicseed phone holder with suction cup , got it from Amazon us. Shipping takes a while https://www.amazon.ae/Universal-VICSEED-Dashboard-Windshield-Adjustable/dp/B07R1QZ8V1/ref=sr_1_5?adgrpid=119211640073&gclid=CjwKCAiAhreNBhAYEiwAFGGKPP6nt33L8SUJhxIlyMC3vKl9Kjv4kKaIJZzTeOOuWcTY_C-uT_QJpBoCmJwQAvD_BwE&hvadid=532488075351&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1000013&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=18396172631103635202&hvtargid=kwd-597317231924&hydadcr=26640_2558929&keywords=vicseed+car+phone+mount&qid=1638862307&sr=8-5 For a 6 to 6.5 inch phone it works fine even in summer on my Xterra. Have been using it for quite a while with no issues , for my style of driving😜 on sand. Additionally I use another phone mounted on the mirror at times with lesser zoom so that I know which way I am heading as below. This option is not as sturdy in bumpy situations https://www.amazon.ae/SKEIDO-Holder-Universal-Rear-view-Mirror/dp/B07WZN9CRZ/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=car+mirror+phone+holder&qid=1638862463&sr=8-6

Good question, but not easy to answer as i've tried many and most of them failed miserably: * Glass suction cup models just fell off due to the summer heat sometimes. Tried a few and gave up. * The ones that stick onto the vent channels actually broke my vent channels. I ended up sticking some velcro to the dashboard and onto my gps phone, and this works fine for me.

Congrats @MMansoor - nicely done!

Wonderful post @Zed My only thing to add is my assumption that when using 4L, there are more gears involved (used) in the transfer case, leading to more heat, hence the much higher risk of destroying your transfer case. Is that correct ?

Congratulations @kiranshinde well done

I'm reviewing the videos, I'll keep on adding on this post: Here we have some interesting drops and Asif parking in the crest 😂 : https://gopro.com/v/62geQ7Q04kr6o Arrival at the yellow truck: https://gopro.com/v/KRqk6o0lyZrRa Quite a big drop: https://gopro.com/v/8vgyB7V5onaXX Difficult climb in soft patch: https://gopro.com/v/lrzQl33Zr3EV5 Fun climb and drop: https://gopro.com/v/zPopXBX1PDzp1 Fun sequence: https://gopro.com/v/zPopD65Kl67ZK

For many offroaders, navigation looks like a scary thing, and finding your way in the desert used to be a daunting task with old obsolete maps, navigation with sun or stars, and many other old tricks of crossing the deserts. Until 5-6 years ago, companies like TomTom and Garmin were ruling the navigation software and hardware, until our phones became smarter and smarter, and nowadays there are tons of free or paid navigation software programs available which are tailored for hiking, offroading, cycling, or other outdoor activities where you would like to record your tracks. In this post i will give some basic essential advice on how to get started with navigating by using GaiaGPS, which is an amazing app that allows you to: 1) Create routes at home via your desktop/tablet through the GaiaGPS website. 2) Use different types of maps like topographic maps, sattelite maps, to find your perfect route you'd like to explore. 3) Save and manage all your tracks, waypoints, areas. 4) Automatically sync all this data with the GaiaGPS Mobile App that is being used to record your track or follow the route you have created beforehand. 1) Registering for GaiaGPS account https://www.gaiagps.com/membership/ You can choose for a FREE account, which works fine for basic topographic and sattelite maps, but will not allow to use them offline. The PREMIUM membership is recommended for around 3.3 USD per month. Once you have become a member, you can head over to Gaiagps.com, login with your account name, and have a look at the basic functionalities. I've posted a short video below that gives a small demo on how to use the GaiaGPS website functionalities. As you can see in the screen, there are many tracks i've recorded with my phone that remain saved in the website. You can remove these, or hide them. The red zones i have marked are called "areas" where you can identify tricky areas that you would like to avoid. They will appear on your phone app as well so you can easily avoid them. Waypoints Waypoint, or pins, could be points of interest, landmarks, entry and exit points, or any place where you want to mark the location and save for later reference. They will appear as a "pin" on your map. You can assign a color to them as you like. This might be useful as you can categorize them. Next to the classic PIN icon, you can choose different other ones, like fences, skulls, forest, or anything that will help you in identifying the waypoint. Sattelite Images Having crisp detail in the sattelite images you are looking, is essential so you can create a route which focuses on the nice bigger dunes instead of the small technical or bushy areas. Gaia comes standard with the Mapbox "Sattelite with Labels" Imagery which is not bad, but the best one i have found so far is the ESRI Sattelite Imagery Map. Below you will find some information on how to add custom maps. The map called "WORLD IMAGERY" in the Premium version is the same as the ESRI Sattelite Imagery Map. Which phone ? Gaia GPS will work on any smartphone that has a decent GPS antenna built-in. In my case i purchased a separate dedicated Android phone which is mounted in my car that i solely use for navigation. This allows me to keep using my own phone as backup device. That dedicated phone has the offline maps downloaded on it, so i do not need cellphone coverage (no sim card). App functionality On an Iphone, this is how the app looks like. The buttons like "RECORD" and "PICTURE" are customizable, and by keeping your finger on it you can select something else you would like to see on the home page. The Magnifying Glass allows you to enter coordinates. You can copy them from within Google Maps. this button toggles between full screen or normal screen. The crosshair button is very important. Click on it once and it will appear green and bring you to your live location and follow you while keeping NORTH up. Click on it again and another logo appears, looking like two reversed triangles. This is the mode that keeps your live location but constantly rotates the map based on your direction. You can experiment with both modes to see what suits you best. I like to stick to the first mode because it allows me to see in which compass direction i am heading. The + Button contains all your other useful functionalities, like adding a waypoint, creating a route, download an offline map, or create an area. Once you hit the record button, the app will start recording your track. Once you finish, click again on it and select "Finish Track" It will then be saved. (and also appear on your GaiaGPS website once you have synced). On the bottom, you can see your trip details, open the list of saved tracks, or go to your settings. Note: In the settings you can put your units/distances in miles or kilometers (whatever you prefer). You can also enable or disable the autosync function, but better to keep it on. So as soon as you have Wifi/Internet on your phone it will automatically sync your tracks between the app and your GaiaGPS account (website). These things will take a bit of practice, and i can recommend you to use your Gaia mobile app for a while on your daily commute, and experiment a bit with the settings until you have tailored it to your own needs. Exporting Maps Most navigation software use .gpx or .kml files which you can import in Google Earth / Maps or any other navigation program. On the GaiaGPS website, and also on the app you can choose to "export" your track. It will create a .GPX file that you can share with fellow offroaders or import in the Relive app Adding Custom Maps for the GaiaGps app users, the Google Maps like Satellite, Terrain, or Hybrid, are not standard built in, but can easily be added by using the GaiaGps website. This is the procedure to add for example Google Terrain. 1) While logged into Gaiagps.com, add a custom map source via TMS here: https://www.gaiagps.com/mapsource/add/ 2) Fill in this TMS URL to get Google Terrain: https://mt0.google.com/vt/lyrs=p&hl=en&x={x}&y={y}&z={z}&s=Ga 3) Give it the name "Google Terrain" 4) Set the Min and Max Zoom level on 4 and 19. 5) Click on "Add this Map Source" The next time you will login it will appear in your mobile app. Some other map links. To add them, follow the same steps as above: Google Maps: https://mt1.google.com/vt/lyrs=r&x={x}&y={y}&z={z} Google Satellite:https://www.google.cn/maps/vt?lyrs=s@189&gl=cn&x={x}&y={y}&z={z} Google Satellite Hybrid:https://mt1.google.com/vt/lyrs=y&x={x}&y={y}&z={z} Google Terrain:https://mt1.google.com/vt/lyrs=t&x={x}&y={y}&z={z} Google Roads:https://mt1.google.com/vt/lyrs=h&x={x}&y={y}&z={z} ESRI Sattelite Imagery:https://server.arcgisonline.com/ArcGIS/rest/services/World_Imagery/MapServer/tile/{z}/{y}/{x}

This drive is organized in full compliance with the COVID19 guidelines. We expect every member that joins this drive to go through below information and strictly follow these guidelines in order not to jeopardize someone's health, and to ensure we can keep organizing these drives safely. MUST READ AND TOTALLY AGREE: COVID19 Precautions Mandatory Safety Requirements Ban from Carnity Off-road Club Two Way Radio Guidelines Drive Details Level: Newbies and above When: 01 Dec 2021, Wednesday Meeting time: 7:30 AM (SHARP - Without any exceptions) Starting Point: https://goo.gl/maps/bZ77eVtDJqDhGJBm7 You can come early and camp in same starting point if you like. Last Fuel Station: https://goo.gl/maps/D6t1rXkuecZScyPZ9 NO 100 Liters of FUEL = NO DRIVE - Carry additional jerry cans accordingly SWB Cars = 2 Jerry can of extra fuel LWB Cars = 1 Jerry can of extra fuel 100+ liter fuel tank cars = No need for extra fuel. Lunch Break: 1 Hour in between with couple of short breaks (if needed). Type of Car: Any proper 4x4 with front and back tow hooks and 8-10 inches of ground clearance. What to bring along: Loads of water, lunch, snacks, face mask, enthusiasm and willingness to learn. Approximate finish time: 4:00 PM End Point: https://goo.gl/maps/hcRAsNvzKXnFDTMm7 THIS IS A COMPRESSOR ONLY DRIVE. LIMITED SPOTS AVAILABLE: Limited to 12 Newbies and above drivers. RSVP will close on 29 Nov, Monday - 9 AM. If the RSVP is full and you wish to join, please mention your name on the drive thread to add on the waiting list. Latecomers will be returned back - without ANY EXCEPTIONS. Members without RSVP will be returned back - without ANY EXCEPTIONS. Please withdraw your RSVP, if you aren't joining, so your spot can be taken by others. Repeated no-show members after RSVP will have their account suspended for a month. Please RSVP on Below Calendar:

@Shaaz Sha I will cancel my trip with Ale if you need support to manage this trip.

Hi @Anton Dimov I added you to the drive. You can bring your son but he has to sit in a proper carseat.

after many hits and misses, am very happy with mobarmor mounts for my phone and radio. A bit pricy but excellent in my pov.

@Xavier Treasurer congrats well done

Great illustration of how 4H & 4L works! Wish I could have the math for my raptor to do a trial & error. Will do some research and try to replicate your calculations @Zed. Thank you 👍

I have prado 2012 I dont have offroad experience I have all the requirment needed. Shovel. Woki toki and pressure guage and air pump and deflators Tow hook for the car rear and front are stock

For those who love remote locations and astrophoto - 23.412565° 54.390732° is the entrance point, and then you can drive 5-15 km inside the desert to the east. Unlimited places for camping inside the dunes from the left side. Deflating is a must, but the track is easy and safe

Congrats @Stav

Congrats @Xavier Treasurer well done.

Well deserved @Xavier Treasurer !!

Well done @MMansoor

@Stav congrats well done

Thank you for informing. See you next time. @Julian Patterson kindly click on leave event in drive calendar

Well done @MMansoor keep it up 💪

Congratulations @Stav

Congratulations @MMansoor, from your very first drives with @Carnityyou have consistently shown passion, commitment and hunger to learn, which is now being rewarded by a well deserved promotion. Way to go to you and your beast!

congrats @Stav

@M.Seidamthank you very much sir, your support is really appreciated!

@Asif Hussain is the drive still on in spite of the fact that only 3 people subscribed? Will we merge this with the other full day newbie drive happening in the same day? Second question: does this count as 1 or 2 drives, being full day, in relation to the newbie to fewbie "promotion"?